MHSA(Q&)A: Mendon football coach John Schwartz
February 2, 2012
John Schwartz didn’t really want the Mendon football head coaching job when a group of players convinced him to take it before the 1989 season. And his first contract started out on a napkin. The rest is history.
Mendon won its 11th MHSAA football championship this fall, downing Fowler 33-0 in the Division 8 Final, to tie for third-most football titles won by one program. Schwartz has coached in the program for all 11, including 10 as head coach, and his record of 236-39 gives him a winning percentage of .858, tops in the MHSAA record book. He recently was selected as this year’s recipient of the high school Duffy Daugherty Award, annually given for career contributions to the game. He follows recent winners Ralph Munger of Rockford and Herb Brogan of Jackson Lumen Christi.
His Mendon teams have had just one losing season. And although he retired a year ago after 36 teaching middle school science, and then fought off cancer over the summer, he has no plans to leave his post on the Hornets’ sideline.
How would you characterize your program?
I think we have very good coaches and I think the kids respect the coaches, and they know the coaches think more of them than just being football players. They care about them. We have their attention, and what we really try to do is form a team concept as soon as we can. We try to stay away from giving any one person too much recognition. We don't give out MVP awards at the end of the year. It's a program where we're all in it together: coaches, kids and community. We try to get the best out of the kids, give the kids the best shot we have at being the best we can be.
How does a small school continue to reload every season?
My first year there, the first thing I did as a head coach was I started the junior high program. I think that's where everything starts. We even have the younger kids called the rocket kids, and those coaches come in and talk about (football) terms so when kids move from one level to another there's no re-teaching. Everyone has an ego, coaches have egos, and they like to do some things differently. But we don't have that. They do what we do. We give them a lot of flexibility, but we have certain drills we want to run. By the time we get them, these kids are in tune with what we are doing. The summer program also is something I started my first year as head coach too. ... It means that during the season we can concentrate more on teaching than conditioning.
You went from 3-6 in 2006 to 12-0 in 2007. Explain how you bounced back.
The losing season we had, we didn't have a lot of kids, and our two best kids were hurt early in the season and couldn't play. We never did bounce back. Even in that season, we were ahead at halftime in all but one game. We just didn't have enough to come back and pull the game out, and we had some very tough games. It wasn't a good season, but I thought those kids played awfully hard for what we had. We got a lot of experience, and it paid off the following year.
Our JVs practice with the varsity. When I work with inside linebackers, I work with (grades) 9-12. Kids learn quicker from kids than from coaches, as far as I'm concerned. ... Football's really changed. It's become a lot more complex. I think we have to delegate more and more every year so we can stay with the changes. It's too much for one person. I remember my first three, four or five years it was just three of us at the varsity level. The other two, neither one taught at the school. We were pretty successful right off the bat, and we started getting more and more interest from people. Now 9-12 we have seven coaches, and we have three at the junior high, and all the coaches but two have played for me. They know what I expect, what I'm looking for, what I want. ... And they want to win. I'd be lost without those guys.
Are there certain seasons that have meant more than others?
The first year I took the job, in 1989, we went undefeated and won a state title. A lot of those kids are very good friends of mine yet, and they're pretty special to me. They were a big boost to my program. In the '95 year, my son was a sophomore on that state title team. I remember a lot about that team.
They all have something they did very well. They either threw the ball well or played great defense or had a big line. When I hear a year now, I think about those teams.
You grew up in a small town (Colon) and have taught and coached in a small town. Was that important for you to do?
I've never taught anywhere else. I never felt I really had a reason to leave. I've gone through at least six superintendents since I've been there. The fourth or fifth said to me, "The only thing that bothers me about Mendon is these people think an awful lot of winning. There are other things." He asked me, "How do you feel about it?" I said, if they didn't feel that way, I wouldn't be here.
Who was your biggest coaching influence?
I would say Morley (Fraser, Jr., under whom Schwartz was an assistant for three seasons). Years before I got there, Mendon was pretty good in the early 70s, and then in the mid 70s football wasn't very good. I was the JV coach the first year, and the second year after two games they brought me up to varsity. The best thing I did was I told them I would not take the head job, but I'll assist. I knew (Fraser) was the kind of person and personality we needed there. It wasn't necessarily all of his football knowledge, but his energy and excitement that he brought to the game.
You said during the Finals postgame press conference that you'd battled cancer during the summer. How did you come back, and did you ever think that might be time to step down?
Everything's fine. I had coaches that took over. At the same time that that happened, I was retiring. If you retire in Michigan, you can't be at the school for one month. So I couldn't be at summer weights all the way through June. So my coaches did all the summer weights. But I had no intention of stepping down. If something (bad) came down ... but once they said they got it, everything went as normal.
After a championship season, how do you ramp things back up for the next fall and a new group of players?
When we go to the playoffs, we take all the JVs unless there are couple who don't want to go. They experience that and get an extra five weeks of practice if we win a state title. And they're excited about it. They want to do that. They’ve' tasted it, and they want a part of that the next year. We remind them it's not what you did, it's what can you do for me now. ... This is your year.
We talk about winning state championships from day one. A lot of people say we shouldn't do that, but why not? Isn't that the ultimate goal? I can't imagine telling a team we think we could be 7-2 this year. We expect to be 9-0 every year. Of course, that's not going to happen. But at same time, I think the losses make you better the following week. We've won state titles where we haven't won the league title. ... You get better.
PHOTO: Mendon coach John Schwartz talks things over with his players during the Hornets' 21-14 win over Decatur in the 2002 Division 7 Final at the Pontiac Silverdome.
MHSAA Provides Update on 2025 Football Playoff Hopefuls, Bracket Reveal Schedule
By
Geoff Kimmerly
MHSAA.com senior editor
October 23, 2025
Here is a list of Michigan High School Athletic Association football playing schools, displaying their win-loss records and playoff averages through the eighth week of the season, plus information on this season's MHSAA Playoffs bracket and Finals schedule announcements.
Schools on this list are divided by division and ordered by playoff average. The top 32 teams by playoff average in each 11-player division and top 16 teams by playoff average in each 8-player division will qualify for the MHSAA Football Playoffs beginning Oct. 31. Divisions were determined prior to the start of the season, and the lists below include not only teams currently positioned to potentially qualify, but also the next eight teams in each division.
To review a list of all football playoff schools, individual school playoff point details and to report errors, visit the Football Playoff Point Summary page.
The announcement of the qualifiers and first-round pairings for both the 11 and 8-player playoffs will take place at 5 p.m. Sunday, Oct. 26, on the “Selection Sunday Show” on the NFHS Network. A subscription is not required to watch the Selection Sunday Show.
The playoff qualifiers and pairings will be posted to the MHSAA Website following the Selection Sunday Show, and times and dates will be added Monday, Oct. 27.
The MHSAA Football Playoffs conclude with the 8-Player Finals on Nov. 22 at Northern Michigan University’s Superior Dome and 11-Player Finals to be played Nov. 28 and 30 at Ford Field.
11-Player Division 1
1. Clarkston, 7-1, 83.125
2. Hudsonville, 8-0, 82.000
3. Detroit Catholic Central, 8-0, 76.661
4. Grand Blanc, 8-0, 76.625
5. Saline, 7-1, 75.875
6. Belleville, 7-1, 74.500
7. Howell, 7-1, 72.875
7. Rochester Adams, 6-2, 72.875
7. Rockford, 6-2, 72.875
10. Detroit Cass Tech, 8-0, 72.500
11. Brownstown Woodhaven, 7-1, 70.750
12. Oxford, 6-2, 70.000
13. Romeo, 6-2, 69.875
14. Brighton, 6-2, 68.250
15. West Bloomfield, 6-2, 67.750
16. Davison, 7-1, 67.375
17. East Kentwood, 6-2, 67.000
18. Dearborn Fordson, 6-2, 66.250
19. Farmington, 6-2, 65.875
20. Macomb Dakota, 6-2, 64.625
21. Northville, 6-2, 63.750
22. Utica, 6-2, 63.375
23. Grand Ledge, 6-2, 62.000
24. Rochester Hills Stoney Creek, 5-3, 58.750
25. Utica Eisenhower, 5-3, 57.375
26. Sterling Heights Stevenson, 5-3, 57.125
27. Grandville, 4-4, 54.125
28. Jenison, 4-4, 53.375
29. Hartland, 4-4, 52.500
30. Dearborn, 4-4, 50.500
31. Salem, 4-4, 50.250
32. Ann Arbor Huron, 4-4, 49.625
33. Rochester, 4-4, 48.875
34. Kalamazoo Central, 5-3, 48.500
35. Caledonia, 3-5, 44.286
36. Novi, 3-5, 44.250
37. Ann Arbor Pioneer, 3-5, 43.750
38. Livonia Stevenson, 3-5, 43.625
39. Holt, 4-4, 43.250
40. Walled Lake Northern, 3-5, 42.375
11-Player Division 2
1. South Lyon, 8-0, 75.875
2. Dexter, 7-1, 73.875
3. Gibraltar Carlson, 8-0, 73.375
4. Portage Central, 8-0, 72.500
5. Grosse Pointe South, 7-1, 70.125
6. Midland Dow, 7-1, 66.750
7. Walled Lake Western, 6-2, 65.875
8. Port Huron Northern, 6-2, 65.625
9. Livonia Franklin, 6-2, 64.750
10. Muskegon, 6-2, 64.458
11. White Lake Lakeland, 6-2, 64.375
12. St. Clair Shores Lakeview, 6-2, 61.125
13. Byron Center, 5-3, 59.875
14. North Farmington, 5-3, 59.500
15. Portage Northern, 6-2, 59.179
16. Warren Cousino, 6-2, 59.125
17. Orchard Lake St. Mary's, 5-2, 58.893
18. Birmingham Groves, 5-3, 55.000
18. Birmingham Seaholm, 5-3, 55.000
20. Lansing Everett, 5-3, 54.875
20. Traverse City Central, 5-3, 54.875
22. Lincoln Park, 5-3, 53.500
23. Allen Park, 5-3, 53.250
24. Traverse City West, 4-4, 52.500
25. Roseville, 4-4, 52.000
25. Temperance Bedford, 4-4, 52.000
27. Muskegon Mona Shores, 5-3, 51.875
28. Waterford Mott, 4-4, 51.000
29. East Lansing, 3-5, 49.000
30. Grand Rapids Northview, 5-3, 48.875
31. Milford, 4-4, 47.250
32. Bloomfield Hills Brother Rice, 4-4, 47.161
33. South Lyon East, 4-4, 47.125
34. Warren Mott, 4-4, 46.875
35. Midland, 4-4, 45.000
36. Dearborn Heights Crestwood, 5-3, 44.375
37. Saginaw Heritage, 3-5, 43.000
38. Ferndale, 4-4, 41.875
39. Southgate Anderson, 3-5, 41.750
40. Battle Creek Central, 4-4, 41.625
40. Berkley, 4-4, 41.625
40. Oak Park, 3-5, 41.625
11-Player Division 3
1. DeWitt, 8-0, 76.458
2. Mount Pleasant, 8-0, 75.000
3. Gaylord, 8-0, 65.625
4. Niles, 8-0, 65.000
5. Grand Rapids Kenowa Hills, 7-1, 64.750
6. Warren Fitzgerald, 7-1, 63.750
7. Adrian, 7-1, 58.500
7. East Grand Rapids, 6-2, 58.500
9. Detroit Martin Luther King, 5-3, 57.667
10. Cedar Springs, 7-1, 57.500
11. Ypsilanti Lincoln, 6-2, 56.875
12. Port Huron, 5-3, 56.250
13. Hastings, 6-2, 56.000
13. Lowell, 6-2, 56.000
15. Fenton, 5-3, 55.625
16. Mason, 5-3, 53.625
16. St. Joseph, 5-3, 53.625
18. Zeeland West, 6-2, 53.125
19. Holly, 5-3, 52.500
20. Marysville, 6-2, 51.125
21. Redford Thurston, 6-2, 50.625
22. Zeeland East, 5-3, 50.250
23. Coldwater, 6-2, 49.375
24. Linden, 6-2, 49.125
24. Middleville Thornapple Kellogg, 5-3, 49.125
26. Trenton, 4-4, 48.250
27. Marquette, 5-3, 48.000
28. Riverview, 6-2, 45.750
29. Coopersville, 4-4, 45.500
30. Warren De La Salle Collegiate, 3-5, 44.929
31. Owosso, 5-3, 44.875
32. Bay City John Glenn, 5-3, 42.625
33. Bay City Western, 3-5, 41.375
34. Fruitport, 4-4, 40.875
35. Petoskey, 4-4, 40.125
36. Stevensville Lakeshore, 3-5, 38.000
37. Ypsilanti Community, 3-5, 37.500
38. Jackson Northwest, 3-5, 36.125
39. Grand Rapids Forest Hills Central, 2-6, 35.375
40. River Rouge, 2-6, 35.292
11-Player Division 4
1. Harper Woods, 8-0, 84.750
2. Williamston, 8-0, 65.375
3. Goodrich, 8-0, 64.875
4. Hudsonville Unity Christian, 8-0, 64.750
5. Chelsea, 7-1, 63.750
6. Battle Creek Harper Creek, 7-1, 61.625
7. Haslett, 6-2, 58.125
8. Escanaba, 7-1, 57.750
9. Dearborn Divine Child, 7-1, 57.042
10. Portland, 8-0, 56.000
11. Ludington, 8-0, 54.375
12. Redford Union, 6-2, 52.625
13. Wyoming Godwin Heights, 7-1, 52.375
14. Madison Heights Lamphere, 5-3, 51.875
15. Center Line, 7-1, 51.250
15. Paw Paw, 5-3, 51.250
17. Big Rapids, 7-1, 51.125
18. Edwardsburg, 6-2, 50.375
19. Vicksburg, 5-3, 48.875
20. Grand Rapids South Christian, 4-4, 47.625
21. Freeland, 6-2, 47.375
22. Tecumseh, 5-3, 47.000
23. Macomb Lutheran North, 7-1, 45.625
24. Grand Rapids Christian, 5-3, 45.500
25. Harper Woods Chandler Park, 6-2, 44.250
26. Spring Lake, 5-3, 43.750
26. Three Rivers, 4-4, 43.750
28. St. Johns, 4-4, 42.500
29. Lansing Sexton, 5-3, 42.250
30. St. Clair, 5-3, 41.750
31. Ortonville Brandon, 4-4, 39.000
32. Fowlerville, 4-4, 38.875
33. Holland Christian, 4-4, 38.750
34. Detroit Henry Ford, 4-4, 37.500
35. Lake Fenton, 3-5, 37.375
36. Croswell-Lexington, 4-4, 36.750
37. Clio, 4-4, 35.875
38. Otsego, 3-5, 35.542
39. Charlotte, 4-4, 35.500
40. Sparta, 3-5, 34.500
11-Player Division 5
1. Grand Rapids Catholic Central, 8-0, 72.475
2. Grand Rapids West Catholic, 7-1, 58.625
3. Pontiac Notre Dame Prep, 6-2, 55.375
4. Frankenmuth, 7-1, 55.250
5. Romulus Summit Academy North, 7-1, 54.375
6. Saginaw Swan Valley, 7-1, 53.500
7. Richmond, 7-1, 53.125
8. Ogemaw Heights, 7-1, 52.250
9. Ann Arbor Father Gabriel Richard, 8-0, 51.736
10. Monroe Jefferson, 7-1, 51.625
11. Detroit Southeastern, 6-2, 50.250
12. Armada, 6-2, 46.750
13. Whitehall, 5-3, 45.000
14. Clare, 6-2, 44.000
15. Michigan Center, 8-0, 43.875
16. Kingsford, 6-2, 43.444
17. Berrien Springs, 5-1, 43.375
18. Detroit Denby, 6-2, 42.667
19. Flat Rock, 5-3, 41.750
20. Gladwin, 5-3, 41.500
21. Howard City Tri County, 5-3, 40.875
22. Kalamazoo Hackett Catholic Prep, 6-2, 40.542
23. Muskegon Oakridge, 5-3, 40.250
24. Dowagiac, 5-3, 40.167
25. Romulus, 4-4, 39.500
26. Negaunee, 5-3, 39.194
27. Detroit Cody, 5-3, 38.250
28. Wyoming Kelloggsville, 5-3, 37.375
29. Yale, 4-4, 36.125
30. Whitmore Lake, 6-2, 36.054
31. Shepherd, 5-3, 36.000
32. Hopkins, 4-4, 35.625
33. Hazel Park, 5-3, 35.375
34. Detroit Voyageur College Prep, 4-4, 34.625
35. Lake Odessa Lakewood, 3-5, 32.125
36. Muskegon Orchard View, 4-4, 31.375
37. Alma, 3-5, 30.750
37. Cheboygan, 3-5, 30.750
39. Midland Bullock Creek, 4-4, 30.500
40. Birch Run, 4-4, 29.125
11-Player Division 6
1. Almont, 8-0, 59.375
2. Jackson Lumen Christi, 5-3, 56.042
3. Detroit Edison, 7-1, 53.000
4. Belding, 7-1, 52.375
5. Olivet, 7-1, 49.625
6. Kent City, 8-0, 48.500
6. Marine City, 6-2, 48.500
8. Montrose, 8-0, 45.750
9. Reed City, 6-2, 45.500
10. Kingsley, 6-2, 45.000
11. Traverse City St. Francis, 6-2, 43.446
12. Flint Hamady, 6-2, 42.375
13. Ecorse, 6-2, 41.875
14. Dearborn Heights Robichaud, 5-3, 41.054
15. Ovid-Elsie, 6-2, 39.625
16. Calumet, 6-2, 39.230
17. Boyne City, 5-3, 39.000
18. Durand, 6-2, 38.625
19. Ida, 6-2, 37.750
20. Detroit Pershing, 5-3, 37.375
21. Clawson, 5-3, 34.875
21. Napoleon, 5-3, 34.875
23. Warren Michigan Collegiate, 4-4, 34.250
24. Central Montcalm, 6-2, 34.000
25. Montague, 4-4, 33.500
26. Flint New Standard Academy, 7-1, 32.750
27. Buchanan, 5-3, 32.333
28. Adrian Madison, 5-3, 32.250
28. Detroit Central, 5-3, 32.250
30. Sanford Meridian, 5-3, 30.875
31. Brooklyn Columbia Central, 5-3, 29.500
32. Clinton Township Clintondale, 4-4, 29.250
33. Kalkaska, 5-3, 29.143
34. Lansing Catholic, 2-6, 29.000
35. Gladstone, 3-5, 28.444
36. Hart, 4-4, 28.375
37. St. Clair Shores South Lake, 3-5, 28.250
38. Royal Oak Shrine Catholic, 5-3, 27.125
39. Onsted, 3-5, 27.000
40. Mason County Central, 4-4, 26.625
11-Player Division 7
1. Menominee, 8-0, 54.028
2. Monroe St. Mary Catholic Central, 7-1, 51.000
3. Charlevoix, 8-0, 43.250
4. Millington, 7-1, 41.000
5. Pewamo-Westphalia, 7-0, 40.893
6. Schoolcraft, 7-1, 40.125
7. Clinton, 6-2, 39.500
8. Constantine, 6-2, 39.250
9. Saginaw Valley Lutheran, 8-0, 38.125
10. Hanover-Horton, 6-2, 37.500
11. Elkton-Pigeon-Bay Port Laker, 6-2, 37.250
12. Cass City, 6-2, 36.625
12. Lawton, 6-2, 36.625
14. North Muskegon, 6-2, 35.571
15. Ottawa Lake Whiteford, 7-1, 34.875
16. Bronson, 7-1, 34.625
17. McBain, 6-2, 34.375
18. Ithaca, 6-2, 33.250
19. Harrison, 6-2, 31.500
20. Saranac, 6-2, 30.321
21. LeRoy Pine River, 5-3, 29.375
22. Detroit Community, 5-3, 29.278
23. Ravenna, 4-4, 29.125
24. Rochester Hills Lutheran Northwest, 4-4, 28.554
25. Union City, 5-3, 27.875
26. Shelby, 5-3, 27.500
27. Jonesville, 5-3, 26.750
27. Leslie, 4-4, 26.750
29. Manton, 5-3, 26.500
30. Burton Bendle, 5-3, 26.250
31. Galesburg-Augusta, 4-4, 25.625
32. Burton Atherton, 4-4, 25.250
33. Morley Stanwood, 3-5, 24.500
34. Quincy, 5-3, 24.000
35. Stockbridge, 4-4, 23.250
36. Coloma, 3-5, 23.125
37. Houghton Lake, 3-5, 22.500
38. Detroit Northwestern, 2-6, 22.250
39. Otisville LakeVille Memorial, 2-6, 22.125
40. Bath, 4-4, 21.946
11-Player Division 8
1. Hudson, 8-0, 46.000
2. Melvindale Academy for Business & Tech, 8-0, 44.903
3. Madison Heights Madison, 7-1, 43.375
4. Harbor Beach, 8-0, 40.000
5. Beal City, 8-0, 39.875
6. Maple City Glen Lake, 6-1, 38.554
7. Allen Park Cabrini, 8-0, 37.750
8. Springport, 8-0, 36.250
9. Decatur, 6-2, 35.000
10. Bark River-Harris, 6-1, 34.605
11. Fowler, 6-2, 34.571
12. New Lothrop, 5-3, 34.500
13. White Pigeon, 6-2, 32.750
14. Unionville-Sebewaing, 6-2, 32.375
15. Southfield Bradford Academy, 5-3, 31.722
16. Saginaw Nouvel Catholic Central, 6-2, 31.250
17. Mancelona, 5-3, 29.250
17. Saginaw Michigan Lutheran Seminary, 5-3, 29.250
19. East Jordan, 5-3, 28.643
20. Genesee, 4-4, 28.250
20. Manchester, 5-3, 28.250
22. Iron Mountain, 5-2, 27.911
23. Frankfort, 5-3, 27.893
24. Clarkston Everest Collegiate, 5-3, 27.875
25. Centreville, 4-4, 27.625
26. Waterford Our Lady of the Lakes, 4-4, 27.375
27. Riverview Gabriel Richard, 3-5, 26.625
28. Auburn Hills Oakland Christian, 5-3, 25.667
29. Reese, 4-4, 24.500
30. L'Anse, 5-3, 24.375
31. Mount Pleasant Sacred Heart, 4-4, 22.929
32. Petersburg Summerfield, 4-4, 22.875
33. Muskegon Catholic Central, 3-5, 22.375
34. Reading, 3-5, 22.000
35. Ubly, 3-5, 21.750
36. West Iron County, 3-4, 21.250
37. Farwell, 3-5, 20.750
37. St Louis, 2-6, 20.750
39. Vassar, 2-6, 18.500
40. Vermontville Maple Valley, 2-6, 18.375
8-Player Division 1
1. Norway, 8-0, 37.696
2. Martin, 8-0, 37.333
3. Blanchard Montabella, 8-0, 35.125
4. Indian River Inland Lakes, 8-0, 34.375
5. Kingston, 7-1, 32.750
6. Gobles, 6-2, 31.190
7. Pickford, 6-1, 31.179
8. Bessemer, 7-1, 31.083
9. Bay City All Saints, 6-2, 30.268
10. Central Lake, 5-3, 30.250
11. Merrill, 6-2, 29.625
12. Capac, 6-2, 29.500
13. Brown City, 6-2, 29.250
14. Climax-Scotts, 6-2, 29.125
15. Newberry, 6-2, 28.768
16. Breckenridge, 5-3, 28.643
17. Marcellus, 5-3, 26.565
18. Concord, 4-4, 24.875
19. Colon, 5-3, 24.625
20. Fulton, 4-4, 24.500
21. Dryden, 4-4, 24.393
22. Rogers City, 4-4, 23.589
23. Brimley, 3-5, 22.601
24. Eau Claire, 4-4, 21.833
8-Player Division 2
1. Onekama, 8-0, 36.250
2. Portland St. Patrick, 8-0, 35.607
3. Mendon, 8-0, 34.750
4. Britton Deerfield, 7-1, 34.625
5. Deckerville, 7-1, 33.875
6. Grand Rapids Sacred Heart, 7-1, 33.565
7. Felch North Dickinson, 8-0, 33.458
8. Pittsford, 7-1, 32.375
9. Mio, 7-1, 31.143
10. Morrice, 7-1, 30.875
11. Powers North Central, 6-2, 30.375
12. Cedarville, 6-2, 30.000
13. Lake Linden-Hubbell, 6-2, 29.833
14. Gaylord St. Mary, 7-1, 29.000
15. Marion, 6-2, 28.125
16. Hillman, 5-3, 26.714
17. Waldron, 5-3, 26.250
18. Adrian Lenawee Christian, 5-3, 26.125
18. Au Gres-Sims, 5-3, 26.125
20. St. Ignace, 5-3, 26.018
21. Kinde North Huron, 5-2, 25.357
22. Bear Lake, 6-2, 24.750
23. Peck, 5-3, 24.089
24. Brethren, 4-4, 23.375